Nievita: [00:00:04] You are made of dreams and this world is not for you. Chapter 3. Page 22, Call Down The Hawk.
Shannon: [00:00:17] Hi, I'm Shannon.
Nievita: [00:00:18] And I'm Nievita.
Shannon: [00:00:18] And we're.
Both: [00:00:19] The Ravin' Girls.
Shannon: [00:00:20] Welcome to our Raven Cycle.
Both: [00:00:22] Podcast?
Nievita: [00:00:25] Well, you know, kind of... Call Down The Hawk podcast, where we talk about seven dysfunctional young adults and wait, no. Eight, nine? How many copies are there?
Shannon: [00:00:39] This is a special episode discussing Call Down The Hawk.
Nievita: [00:00:43] Yeah, and we don't have any specific Deep Dives. I did do a lot of research on Boudicca and then didn't really put it all together. So, maybe I'll do an online essay with that.
Shannon: [00:00:57] I've seen Nievita's notes. There are copious notes. We're gonna be talking for a long time.
Nievita: [00:01:02] Jesus Christ.
[00:01:03] Even without a Deep Dive.
Nievita: [00:01:05] Jesus Christ, I think my notes alone are 18 pages.
Shannon: [00:01:08] Holy Crap. Mine are like five, dear.
Nievita: [00:01:17] I know...
Shannon: [00:01:17] Hon, we can't do a whole season in one episode.
Nievita: [00:01:19] I knooooow... I kept it short. (Shannon laughs) That's keeping it short. Okay...
Shannon: [00:01:29] Disclaimers? Disclaimers. This is analysis podcast, we'll be discussing Call Down The Hawk as Call Down The Hawk.
Nievita: [00:01:36] Yeah, pretty much. (S: Umm) But we probably.
Shannon: [00:01:38] --and probably the Raven Cycle as well. (N: Yeah) This means we are spoilerific, so you'll probably want to have read the books before listening. We'll use pronunciations from the audio book, and page numbers are referenced from the hardcover edition.
Nievita: [00:01:50] Correct. And a disclaimer from me. This podcast does still have a Teen+ rating, and there is canon levels of adult content, including... well, Ronan swearing... maybe... Hennessy level drinking? (both laugh) Declan lewness? He's not really lewd, but he's kind of a flirt. No Gray Man violence. There's other violence, but... (S: Mm-hmm) Moderator violence. No Moderator violence.
Shannon: [00:02:15] There we go. (sighs) I like the old one better, the old one (Nievita laughs) the other one flows more smoothly.
Nievita: [00:02:21] I've been saying the other one for two years. Okay.
Shannon: [00:02:24] All right. Let's get into the episode.
Nievita: [00:02:25] Yes, right on the top of the episode, an announcement. We want to say thank you to our Patrons because we now have our website up and running at Ravin Girls dot com.
Shannon: [00:02:39] Yes. That is so exciting--.
Nievita: [00:02:40] --which is so exciting. And we would not be doing it without you.
Shannon: [00:02:44] Absolutely not.
Nievita: [00:02:45] And if you go to our website, Ravin' Girls dot com, you will--
Shannon: [00:02:49] --R A V I N--
Both: [00:02:50] --G I R L S--
Nievita: [00:02:53] You will see a Patron Wall of Fame. (S: Yes) So, if you want to become a patron and join that wall of fame, there's a button there or you can go to patreon.com/ravingirls (S: Yup!) and help us out, because we wouldn't have that without you.
Shannon: [00:03:11] Absolutely not. Thank you guys so much--.
Nievita: [00:03:13] --thank you so much. Yes. And... to get right into Call Down The Hawk--
Shannon: [00:03:20] --Whooooo!
Nievita: [00:03:20] If you're a new listener, you're only listening to this episode or you are a long-time listener and you didn't listen to the Call Down The Hawk episode because you were waiting and didn't want to read the sampler. I would suggest going back and listening to the first Call Down The Hawk episode where we discussed the first eight chapters that were released by Scholastic, because there are some things that we discussed there that we're not gonna to discuss here.
Nievita: [00:03:47] One of those being, we talked about the factions that we were introduced to in the first eight chapters, like the Zeds, the Visionaries, the Moderators. But what we didn't do was... talk about the actual characters, because we didn't have a feeling for the characters except for the ones from the Raven Cycle (S: Right) in the first eight chapters. So we're going to briefly cover those characters, including some of the ones from the Raven Cycle, just to introduce those concepts to people who might just be picking up the Call Down The Hawk Ravin' Girls episode, because this is the only book of Maggie's you've read! If so, welcome.
Shannon: [00:04:25] Welcome indeed.
Nievita: [00:04:26] Yes, I will say that in our last episode when we talked about Visionaries, we said that they were psychics and that... we thought their brains got fragmented. And of course, that was how we were interpreting based on the first eight--
Shannon: [00:04:41] --right--
Nievita: [00:04:42] --chapters.
Shannon: [00:04:43] We hadn't seen far enough to understand what exactly they were.
Nievita: [00:04:45] Exactly. So a bit of a correc--
Shannon: [00:04:47] --and we said as much.
Nievita: [00:04:48] We did say as much. A bit of a correction because we find out in Call Down The Hawk that that's not actually the case. (S: Right) We're led to believe that in the first eight chapters. But that's not what Visionaries actually are, which is very interesting. (S: Mm-hmm) So a bit of a correction there.
Nievita: [00:05:04] So, the first thing would be the Lynch brothers. So we have three Lynch brothers, (S: Yup) the orphans Lynch. (Shannon chuckles) We have Declan, (S: Mm-hmm) who's the eldest. He's 21 years old. He lives in D.C. or outside of D.C.. He has a boring internship with a political figure. He does everything he can to stay as bland (S: Yup) as possible.
Shannon: [00:05:28] He wants to blend in and be bland and like, not stand out and "keep your head down".
Nievita: [00:05:34] Right. Yeah. So, that's where we start with Declan. Then you have Ronan, who is the opposite of Declan. (S: Mm-hmm) He is hard edged and he is a dreamer that can pull things out of his dreams. And then we've got Matthew, the third Lynch brother, the sunny youngest brother.
Shannon: [00:05:51] He's a golden retriever. (N: Yes) I mean, he's not really, but.
Nievita: [00:05:54] Well, he could be. (Shannon laughs) I mean, who knows?
Shannon: [00:05:58] But yeah, do we wanna talk about, like, how Matthew is a dream of Ronan's.
Nievita: [00:06:01] (enthusiastic) Yeah!
Shannon: [00:06:02] So Matthew was dreamed by Ronan when Ronan was like, three (N: Mm-hmm) and... does not know that he is a dream until like--
Nievita: [00:06:10] --yeah, halfway through the book--
Shannon: [00:06:12] --about like, halfway through this book.
[00:06:13] Mm-hmm. Then we have Hennessy (S: Mm-hmm) and Jordan. (S: Mm-hmm) Hennessy is a dreamer like Ronan. (S: Right) And Jordan is a dream like Matthew. (S: Right) And then, there are also... four to six other (Shannon, overlapping: other copies) girls depending on the time in the book? (S: Right) I think they get to the... 11th copy is the one that dies in the bathroom? (S: Uh-huh) I'm not entirely sure, but I think so.
Shannon: [00:06:42] Yeah, 'cause I think there could be... is it twelve or thirteen tha-that she can have?
Nievita: [00:06:44] (overlapping) 13 fully--
Shannon: [00:06:44] --thirteen spaces.
Nievita: [00:06:47] Right. Thirteen spaces. The last one was in Lindenmere, but it wasn't a copy, she just got the rose. (S: Right) without a copy. So I think that was number twelve.
Shannon: [00:06:59] Yeah. So, eleventh copy... (N: I think...) is the last one the actually shows up and then--
Nievita: [00:07:04] --in the bathroom. (S: Yeah) I think, (S: Okay) but I don't remember for sure.
Shannon: [00:07:08] We'll talk a little bit more about that (Nievita laughs) when we get there, I'm sure--
Nievita: [00:07:09] (overlapping) Yeah, exactly. And then we have the Moderators, which are Carmen Farooq-Lane, who is one of the Moderators whose brother was a dreamer. And then we have Parsifal, who is a Visionary (S: Right) that she was stuck with for a while, and then Liliana shows up--
Shannon: [00:07:28] --later on. She's another Visionary--
Nievita: [00:07:30] --she's another Visionary. I know you did a really good synopsis of the book (Shannon laughs) 'cause I know you had character stuff in there as well. So... but just to briefly go over who we're talking about when we say these names, these are who they are. (S: Right) Basic synopsis of Call Down The Hawk. You had an excellent one.
Shannon: [00:07:48] I'm glad that you think it's excellent, because I thought that it was kind of hard to do.
Nievita: [00:07:52] (laughs) It is hard to do.
Shannon: [00:07:53] But yeah. So, a government agency called the Moderators is killing dreamers because they think a dreamer is going to destroy the world by dreaming an unquenchable fire. (N: Mm-hmm) They got this idea from the Visionaries, who are people who explosively transform to different ages within their own timeline. (N: Right) Like, any age that they can be. (N: Right) And when they explode, they get a vision, and they all have a vision of a dreamer ending the world in fire. (N: Right).
Shannon: [00:08:24] So, one thread in this book follows a Moderator and a Visionary. Carmen Farooq-Lane is the Moderator and Parsifal is the Visionary, (N: Mm-hmm) and eventually a second Visionary, which was Liliana, trying to track down dreamers.
Shannon: [00:08:36] There's a second plot thread of a dreamer who always has the same nightmare and ends up bringing back a copy of herself after every dream. (N: Mm-hmm) And that's Hennessy. (N: Correct) And each time she does, she knows she's one step closer to death-that's what we were talking about-the choker of flowers around her neck-every time she brings back a copy, she gets another... (N: Right) another flower. She's trying desperately to find some way to have a different dream and/or find a way for her dreams to stay alive after she dies. (N: Mm-hmm) She feels like her first dream, who is Jordan, (N: Mm-hmm) who's a viewpoint character through a good chunk of the book, is more real than she is. And I kind of tend to agree with her.
Nievita: [00:09:12] Yeah. (both chuckle) As Ronan said, if Hennessy has only been dreaming in 20 minute chunks, you feel dead. (S: Right. Exactly.) Speaking from experience. (Shannon chuckles)
Shannon: [00:09:24] The third plot thread is the Lynch brothers. Ronan wants desperately to move to Cambridge to live with Adam. (N: Mm-hmm) The attempt does not go well. (N: No) Ronan has dreamed a new forest, Lindenmere, and Bryde, another dreamer, is showing up in it... a or at least his voice is. (N: Right) Declan is in search of something and ends up going to the fairy market, which is an underground trade convention for black-market magical stuff. (N: Mm-hmm) And he ends up taking Ronan along. (N: Right) Everyone there is also talking about Bryde. (N: Mm-hmm) Declan and a dream fall in love.
Nievita: [00:09:57] Well, yeah. (both laugh) Kind of.
Shannon: [00:10:00] They totally do.
Nievita: [00:10:03] Well, they fall in... "like each other". (S: Yeah) They fall in "they would bang". (Shannon laughs)
Shannon: [00:10:11] Matthew figures out he was dreamed by Ronan, (N: Mm-hmm) and and is rightfully pissed off that no one had told him. (N: Yeeeaaahhh) And Declan spends the whole book rightfully pissed off at Niall for being a jackass and basically being the source of all their problems so far.
Nievita: [00:10:24] Fuck Niall.
Shannon: [00:10:25] (laughs) Yes. And the coming together of all these threads is basically the climax of the book.
Nievita: [00:10:30] Mm-Hmm. Very well done. (Shannon chuckles) So, what I have to add... not really a synopsis, but a little bit of background about the book. In the Owl Crate that came with a copy of the book, and in a couple of other book crates that I've heard of, Maggie included a letter. And it talks about... what might have been part of the inspiration for parts of this book.
Nievita: [00:10:53] (italics)"I still remember one of the most terrifying moments of my life. I was a spitfire college student with bad social skills and a worse attitude. Every day I commuted 1.5 hours to school until I found a shortcut. This narrow road cut off a corner and rejoined to the main road later. If you went twice the speed limit, you could shave off 15 minutes. It was a bad idea. (chuckles) I did it all the time.
Nievita: [00:11:20] One day, I glimpsed another car ahead of me on this normally empty road. Stranger still was that it was identical to my car. Same make, model, color. And when I caught up at a hairpin turn, I saw that the driver was a slight young woman with hair just my color, in a ponytail just like mine. Squarish shoulders, just like mine. Drove just like me.
Nievita: [00:11:44] Suddenly I was terrified. What if I caught her eye in the mirror and she had my face? I hit the brakes and let her tear off. Two decades later, I still don't know why it scared me so bad. I do know--
Shannon: [00:11:59] --no, I totally get it. (both laugh)
Nievita: [00:12:01] Yeah! (Shannon continues laughing) I do know that the moment I got home, I started writing a story, and that you are holding a box with that story in it now. I hope you like it. (end italics) (Nievita chuckles, then both laugh)
Shannon: [00:12:15] That's freaking creepy!
Nievita: [00:12:16] I know. (Shannon sighs) And then a little bit more. Recently, she posted a video that was about a week or so ago, and she said there were three reasons that she wrote the book. Number one, Ronan Lynch. His ability to take things from his dreams was a metaphor for creativity and that as a creator, you often are looking for a sense of belonging and finding other creators and community, but that people create for different reasons, and that being a creator doesn't promise commonality. (S: Mm-hmm)
Nievita: [00:12:49] The second reason being Jordan and forgery. (Shannon chuckles) Maggie had taken a seminar on forgeries in history and learned that forgeries could be a good or bad thing, that they're a teaching tool and a learning process, and it brings up big questions about what makes an original.
Nievita: [00:13:06] And number three was that she wanted to write a cracking adventure story, like the trashy thrillers that you find in the grocery store, but with all of the Stiefvater-y stuff like car chases, gun battles, and blowing shit up. (Shannon chuckles again)
Nievita: [00:13:22] So, overall impressions.
Shannon: [00:13:24] Overall impressions. Okay, so I really, really enjoyed it. (N: Mm-hmm) And maybe it's just because we just finished Dream Thieves, (N: Mm-hmm) but Call Down The Hawk felt like much more of a slow burn than the Raven Cycle. (N: Mm-hmm) It worked and I enjoyed it, but I did feel like 90 percent of the book was set up and then like, BOOM... CLIMA- ...oh, wait, (N: Yeah) now I gotta wait for the next book.
Nievita: [00:13:47] Well, yeah. (Shannon laughs) But if you think about The Raven Boys.
Shannon: [00:13:51] Uh, yeah, exactly.
Nievita: [00:13:52] (laughs) It is much more similar to The Raven Boys (S: Right) where there was lots of ummm... wait, what's going on? (S: Mm-hmm) And then boom, yes.
Shannon: [00:14:00] I think it did a good job expanding the Raven Cycle universe (N: Mm-hmm) while still being its own thing. And I liked the new characters, especially Jordan. (N: Mm-hmm) And I like what she did with the familiar characters, too. (N: Mm-hmm) And... I liked the story so far, it's really interesting. I like all the new stuff that we've learned and stuff like that.
Nievita: [00:14:18] Mm-hmm. So my overall impression was basically, Holy Shit. (Shannon belly-laughs) That was it. That's my comment. Holy shit. (laughs) I didn't really-it was like (Shannon still laughing in the background) that was the thing that happened TO me. I feel I-I honestly came out to have a good time, and I'm feeling attacked right now. (both laugh) That's kind of how I felt about it. (both laugh some more) I came out to be attacked and I'm having a good time-I'm not sure which is true! (Shannon laughs)
Shannon: [00:14:50] Both. No, you were here for Adam on a motorcycle, sweetheart. (laughs uproariously)
Nievita: [00:14:55] (in a dreamy voice) That is soooo true. (Shannon continues laughing) Oh, my God. I have to lay down again. (both laugh)
Shannon: [00:15:04] So, did it meet your expectations?
Nievita: [00:15:07] Yeeeeeesss... I would say yes. I do feel like there was a lot less "bro moments" (chuckles) and funny then the Raven Cycle. (S: Mm-hmm) And... I think that a lot of that had to do with the fact that you go into the Raven Cycle with friendships firmly established. (S: Right) Except for Blue, obviously she's kind of your entry viewpoint character. But none of the characters in this book, except for the Lynch brothers who are kind of antagonistic to each other, have an easy relationship? And... I think that that is probably my only expectation that didn't get fulfilled (S: Mm-hmm) was I expected-it wasn't quite as funny as I expected it to be, although there were funny moments, and there wasn't quite as much character bonding as I would have liked. (S: Right) How about you?
Shannon: [00:15:57] I would say that, yes, it met my expectations. (N: Mm-hmm) I enjoyed it, and I can see that a lot of the questions that I had are going to be answered and some of them already are. (N: Mm-hmm) And it looks like we're going to see a lot of the things that I wanted to see. (N: Mm-hmm) And, that's good. I like that.
Nievita: [00:16:15] Okay, awesome. So things overall that we liked, or what worked for us particularly well.
Shannon: [00:16:20] I loved seeing so much more Declan. (N: Mm-hmm) Basically like, getting into his head, seeing him as a viewpoint character. I really like Jordan. (N: Mm-hmm) I liked how it felt like this was building on Raven Cycle stuff, particularly Dream Thieves stuff. (N: Uh-huh) I was happy that so many of the things I wanted to see explored are already getting explored or--
Nievita: [00:16:41] --or hinted at.
Shannon: [00:16:42] Yeah, exactly--
Nievita: [00:16:42] --in some way. (N: Mm-hmm) (S: Mm-hmm)
Nievita: [00:16:44] Okay. For me, of course the Lynch brothers. (laughs) (S: Right) And like you said, kind of the relationship between Declan and Jordan. (S: Uh-huh) And then I really, really liked Ronan becoming a mentor for another dreamer.
Shannon: [00:16:58] Yeah, that's a good point.
Nievita: [00:17:00] And so, to counter-point my last statement, basically all of those interpersonal relationships, once they started to happen, (S: Right) those things that Maggie does so well, (S: Mmmm) she did really well!
Shannon: [00:17:13] Right. We get a lot of growth between the Lynch brothers (N: Mm-hmm) and that was really cool.
Nievita: [00:17:18] Another thing that I liked was that there were quick chapters and it was a fast change P.O.V. (S: Mm-hmm) and it, to me, did keep the pace pretty well, uhh... although that also, again, has a flip side-goes into one of the things I didn't like about Call Down The Hawk, which meant that there were so many weird character P.O.V. that I was like, ummmm... okay, can I get back to the good stuff? (both laugh).
Nievita: [00:17:43] Okay. So, to get into that, things overall that we disliked or didn't work for us.
Shannon: [00:17:49] I hate the Moderators. (laughs)
Nievita: [00:17:52] Okay...
Shannon: [00:17:52] (still laughing) Like, not that I think that they're a bad idea or like, not interesting. (N: Uh-huh) It's just that I really dislike their, "Dreamers and dreams aren't people" mentality. (N: Mm-hmm) Like, I get that it's basically a metaphor for how we dehumanize the enemy in war (N: Right) but it still makes me cringe every freakin' time. (N: Yeah) Just like, just like, no, they're real. They-they-they are... it's-it's... there's--.
Nievita: [00:18:14] Soylent Green is people.
Shannon: [00:18:17] Yeah. (Nievita laughs)
Nievita: [00:18:19] So, for me there was a moment I punched something. Can you guess what that moment was?
Shannon: [00:18:26] Shoot. I'm having trouble. What was it--
Nievita: [00:18:28] --okay. When Declan says, "She's my mother.".
Shannon: [00:18:33] Aaaaahhhhh...
Nievita: [00:18:33] I was driving in my car, listening to the audiobook, sobbing like a little baby because Matthew was like, "I'm not a real Lynch brother." And then Declan is like, "Oh, you think I'm a real Lynch brother? Let me show you!" And then Declan like, pulls the card out and it's like, "she's my mother" and I PUNCHED the steering wheel. (both start laughing) It was like, FUCK!!! Like, so loud! (both still laughing) So, I'm like... (struggles to talk through laughing) crying and punching things as I'm driving in my car. Thank you, Maggie, I guess. But... oh, man. (makes a whining noise)
Shannon: [00:19:09] Just, you wanted-you wanted him to have the exact same parentage as Matthew and...
Nievita: [00:19:14] Well, we've talked about it. People have said that they thought that Declan wasn't Aurora's son. And I have said that I couldn't see the reasons why people would think that. But, I didn't want that to be true because it makes me hate Niall Lynch more (S: Yeeeaaahhh) than I did before. And guess what? (sing-song) I hate Niall Lynch more than I did before, which I didn't think was possible. (Shannon laughs) I genuinely didn't think was possible. And I hate him so... fucking much. (laughs) So much.
Shannon: [00:19:50] It's like, on Declan's behalf.
Nievita: [00:19:53] (Overlapping) Oh my god-all of them--
Shannon: [00:19:54] --all the boys. Yeah--
Nievita: [00:19:55] --all of them. Eve-Matthew. I mean all of them. (S: Mm-hmm) I did go through it another time, and then when Mór... Mór Ó Corra sees Declan in the elevator, when she glances at Ronan she's like whatever, and she looks at Declan and she flinches? (S: Uh-huh) and I'm like (super angry voice) Ooooh Myyyy GOD, I'm soooo MAD! (sounds of frustration) And--
Shannon: [00:20:14] --and then like, he goes looking for her... and like, oof--
Nievita: [00:20:19] --Yeeeaaahhh--
Shannon: [00:20:20] Oh, honey.
Nievita: [00:20:22] And then it was even sadder, because on page 439, when Ronan is driving to try and save Matthew at the very end, (S: Mm-hmm) he's thinking to himself, "The Lynch brothers, the brothers Lynch. In a way, the Lynch brothers had always been the most important and truest definition of the Lynch family. Secrets bound them together far more tightly than any friendship ever could, and so even when they went to school, they remained to the Lynch brothers, the brothers Lynch. Ronan didn't know who he would be without them." (S: Awwwww...) Ronan doesn't know though. So, I'm just like, (frustrated voice) Oh my God, I hate everything about this! (Shannon laughs, Nievita takes a big sigh)
Shannon: [00:21:05] I mean--
Nievita: [00:21:05] --it's interesting--
Shannon: [00:21:07] --i-it, yeah, it is. It's like, Declan is still Ronan's effing brother, whether or not (N: Right) Aurora is...
Nievita: [00:21:13] Yeah. I mean even-that's... I had that written in my book, I was like, well, okay, if they are both sired by Niall which... who knows, then wouldn't they both be Lynch brothers still?
Shannon: [00:21:26] Yeah.
Nievita: [00:21:27] I mean, half brothers but still. But that's another question. And then like many people, I am sad and disappointed that we don't see Adam past chapter 41. (S: Yeeeaaahhh) Which is basically halfway through the book, and it's like, what the fuck happened to Adam?
Shannon: [00:21:44] Yeah, I want to know where Adam is and what he's doing.
Nievita: [00:21:46] Well, what do you think happened?
Shannon: [00:21:48] I have no idea.
Nievita: [00:21:50] Okay, I don't-I mean--
Shannon: [00:21:51] --it's like, I'm a little worried 'cause we don't see him very much after the time he scrys sees the Lace.
Nievita: [00:21:58] W-yeah. We see him drive away from the Barns and there is no contact from Adam from that--
Shannon: [00:22:04] --right, we don't even know that he made it back to school--
Nievita: [00:22:05] --nope, we do not. We don't even know that he made it back to school.
Shannon: [00:22:10] 'cause the last text that we hear Ronan getting from Adam comes before Adam shows up, right?
Nievita: [00:22:16] Correct. (S: Okay) Yeah. So my theory is... that if the Moderators knew where Matthew was...
Shannon: [00:22:23] They knew where Adam was. (low voice) Shhhhhiiit.
Nievita: [00:22:29] (laughs) That's my theory. I don't know. (Shannon lets out a big sigh) Okay.
Shannon: [00:22:33] Were there any moments or details that shocked or surprised you?
Nievita: [00:22:36] Yes. (laughs) The Visionaries as time travelers within their own lifetime (S: Yeah) was super shocking. And, I had noticed that Liliana came out of the van as a teenager when she was described as a woman before that? (S: Right) But the scene with Parsifal was disturbing--.
Shannon: [00:22:56] (whispering) Oh my god, yes--
Nievita: [00:22:58] --and shocking.
Shannon: [00:22:59] Yeessss.
Nievita: [00:23:00] Also with Liliana, she started out as a woman, then became a teen after the van with children in it, then an old woman after she contacted old women. Then a woman again after being with Carmen. And I was wondering if her age at all was based on the ages of the people around her.
Shannon: [00:23:18] Possibly.
Nievita: [00:23:19] It was just a weird detail. (S: Mm-hmm)
Shannon: [00:23:21] I was also surprised by the Visionaries, (N: Mm-hmm) that was really interesting. I was a little surprised to see the copy of Niall.
Nievita: [00:23:26] (sound of disgust) Ugh, god, yes.
Shannon: [00:23:28] And the woman who looked like Aurora. (N: Yeah) I was surprised by that. I'm surprised that I was surprised that Declan isn't Aurora's son. (N: Mmmm) I was also a little surprised and happy to see Declan showing so much emotion and thinking of his own happiness.
Nievita: [00:23:43] Awwww! (whispers) Declan! (S: Mm-hmm) One of the other things I was surprised and kind of pleased by was the sun dogs.
Shannon: [00:23:50] Yesss! That was super cool!
Nievita: [00:23:52] It was super cool, and I actually talked about sun dogs. Do you remember this?
Shannon: [00:23:58] I don't--
Nievita: [00:23:58] --in the weather folklore prediction episode?
Shannon: [00:24:02] Oh my goodness.
Nievita: [00:24:03] And the funny thing is, that I talked about them more than I put in the episode, because I ended up cutting it down, because I was like, oh, sun dogs aren't appropriate to the Raven Cycle. (Shannon laughs) So--
Shannon: [00:24:14] --so maybe we can, like, find that footage, and--
Nievita: [00:24:16] (overlapping) --find that. Yeah, I might be able to put it in there, but... I thought it was just me going on another research tear (Shannon laughs) and then they show the fuck up. But if you want to go back to episode 14, I do talk a little bit about the mythology of sun dogs, if you are interested. Also, black dogs on the leyline, which is a callback to (S: Yeeesss) The Raven Boys.
Nievita: [00:24:40] I also very strongly want to point out that on page 438, Lindenmere tells Ronan that the sun dogs are, "hungry. Quench them with water." And on page 50, The apocalypse is described as a, "starving, unquenchable fire." And I was thinking maybe the Sun Dogs get out (laughs) and can't be quenched?
Shannon: [00:24:59] Oooohhh, oh, oh dear...
Nievita: [00:24:59] Could they be a starving, unquenchable fire? I mean, obviously they quench them, but maybe not?
Shannon: [00:25:07] Oh dear...
Nievita: [00:25:08] I just-I liked the fact that the language was reused (S: Mm-hmm) for the sun dogs. (S: Yeah) Any details or questions from the Raven Cycle or Opal that you thought would be addressed but weren't.
Shannon: [00:25:21] I still want to know who the woman was who showed up at the Barn?
Nievita: [00:25:26] That's what I put too, yeah. (laughs) Was there anything else?
Shannon: [00:25:31] Not that jumps to mind.
Nievita: [00:25:34] Mm-hmm. Yeah, I said she may still come in, of course, but it was weird to me that nothing happened with it yet? (S: Yeah) Yeah.
Shannon: [00:25:41] It's like, I can't even imagine what faction she would have been a part of, like...
Nievita: [00:25:44] Boudica?
Shannon: [00:25:45] Boudica. Yeah.
Nievita: [00:25:47] (laughs) I don't know...
Shannon: [00:25:49] Okay, so. Through lines and themes.
Nievita: [00:25:51] So, the first one that I picked out was this concept of sacrificing for art, (S: Right) almost? (S: Mm-hmm) With giving away pieces of yourself (S: Mm-hmm) in the creative process. And I thought that that both worked, obviously very specifically for Hennessy, but could also be considered something that Ronan has to go through as well. (S: Right) The next one was... kind of dealing with long term illness, (S: Mmmm) because you've got the copies of Hennessy that are killing her. (S: Right) As she's dreaming, the dreaming is killing her in some way. But then if she doesn't dream, it's killing her in some way.
Shannon: [00:26:31] (overlapping) Right, and there may be a lot of what Maggie was going through coming through in that.
Nievita: [00:26:34] (overlapping) Very, very much so, I think so, yeah. And then, also Parsifal dealing with it like a chronic illness. (S: Yeah) I think it was page 103 where it basically... Carmen is talking about how he's much more tractable at the beginning of the day, but by the end of the day he wants everything perfect. (S: Right) That's like, yeah, he's running out of spoons, like (S: Yeah, exactly) he can't... deal with it. (sympathetic laugh) So he's having to cut things down (S: Mm-hmm) that he can't deal with it (S: Right) because he's in pain or he's sick or... whatever's going on--
Shannon: [00:27:06] (overlapping) --Because, like, that's got to be, like, I mean he's dying.
Nievita: [00:27:09] He's dying, too, yes, absolutely. And then for me, somewhere in the back of my brain, I had assumed that the night wash was leftover from the demon, and that's why Ronan was dealing with. (S: Yeeeaaahhh) But, with Hennessy getting it as well... I mean, I was wondering if, like-do all dreamers get it? It sounds like it--.
Shannon: [00:27:29] --I think they do--
Nievita: [00:27:30] --based on what Nathan said (S: Mm-hmm) and Bryde said. So, it was just-it was an interesting kind of a dreaming can be an illness if you do it, and it can be an illness if you don't do it. (laughs).
Shannon: [00:27:41] Right.
Nievita: [00:27:42] And then the last big theme or throughline that I saw was basically climate change (Shannon laughs) or the impact of mankind on nature. (S: Yeah) Because they talked about storms... dumping water all in one place, (S: Right) and not somewhere else. But then Bryde was talking about how it used to rain so much more, and we gave it over to humans (S: Mm-hmm) and now look what's happening. And the trees are dying, and--
Shannon: [00:28:09] --and like the fact that we used to have like, this real like, silence. But now, even if you got everyone in the world to shut up (N: Yeah) you'd still have a hum, and--
Nievita: [00:28:17] --ex-exactly. And even... even like, the unquenchable fire, it sounds like global warming. (laughs)
Shannon: [00:28:22] Global warming, yeah. Climate change.
Nievita: [00:28:24] Yeah. And in the dream, Ronan pulls a baggie of teeth out of the ocean, which is disgusting, but then he thinks about plastic constantly being (S: Uh-huh) in the ocean. And I was just like, there's a lot of, sort of, very... I don't even think that subtle environmental messages (S: Right) happening here, but it was definitely a through line.
Nievita: [00:28:43] I did love the fact that Bryde was like, "Don't you hate the sun, don't you love the rain?" And I'm like, I'm a pluviophile! I'm a dreamer! (Shannon laughs loudly) Like, I fucking hate the sun. I will sign up for this shit.
Shannon: [00:29:00] You. Hate. Summer.
Nievita: [00:29:00] I hate summer so much, and it was talking about how like, humans get SAD, like, Seasonal Affective Disorder, but- (laughs) but dreamers don't. And I'm like, I feel so much better in the wintertime, (Shannon laughs) you have no idea. I will sign on with this.
Shannon: [00:29:18] You want to be a dreamer very, very badly. It would be awesome. A-and also kind of not awesome--
Nievita: [00:29:22] --it would be terrible. I do-I don't know that I want to be a dreamer. (Shannon sighs) So how did you feel the theme of identity played out in Call Down The Hawk?
Shannon: [00:29:31] Oh, wow. Ummm...
Nievita: [00:29:33] How were the characters different at the end than they were at the beginning?
Shannon: [00:29:37] So, like, the book is all about identity, like, (N: Mm-hmm) so much of it is about identity. In a lot of the same ways that The Dream Thieves was. (N: Right) Are Zeds, are dreamers people, are dream people real people? (N: Mm-hmm) Yes, to both. I don't care (Nievita starts laughing) that Maggie said that dreams aren't real people! (Shannon laughs)
Nievita: [00:29:55] Okay. Define real people: Internal organs? Green jello? (both laugh)
Shannon: [00:30:03] They-they're peeeooople.
Nievita: [00:30:06] Yes. Fine. (S: Okay) Yup, okay, anyway--
Shannon: [00:30:08] --yeah, anyway. So Ronan spends the book trying to find himself again. (N: Mm-hmm) And he moves from feeling like he needs a mentor to being a mentor. (N: Mm-hmm) He learns to let himself expand a little more, and I think that's going to be a theme that carries through the trilogy just-just him like, expanding and opening up and finding new ways to be. (N: Mm-hmm).
Shannon: [00:30:29] And Declan... awww Declan. (N: Yeeeaaahhh) Like he-he actually grows a whole-he grows so much in this book. (N: Right) He's trying so hard to figure out who he is, and how he can be his own person while still protecting everyone he loves and (N: Mm-hmm) putting them-without putting them in more danger. He shows so much more emotion in this book than he did in all of the Raven Cycle, and I love it so much.
Nievita: [00:30:53] Yeah.
Shannon: [00:30:53] I want to see him keep growing and I want him to be happy.
Nievita: [00:30:56] Very much so. (S: Mm-hmm)
Shannon: [00:30:58] And Matthew, sweet little Matthew! (S: Mm-hmm) Realizing your a dream must really suck.
Nievita: [00:31:04] It-yes...
Shannon: [00:31:05] You actually see him become a little more real at the end (N: Mm-hmm) I think? Yeah just like, coming to terms with stuff and loving Ronan while still realiz-realizing and accepting that Ronan is flawed. (N: Mm-hmm) And--
Nievita: [00:31:16] --I mean, he becomes conscious of himself.
Shannon: [00:31:19] Yeah. Exactly.--
Nievita: [00:31:19] --He becomes--
Shannon: [00:31:20] --that's what I mean by being more real, like, you know--
Nievita: [00:31:21] --yeah, he becomes self-aware and Bryde points that out. It's like, well, wisdom hurts. (S: Uh-huh) The gain of wisdom is a painful thing.
Shannon: [00:31:29] Right. And Jordan does a lot of growing, too. She learns to assert herself and becomes more like, self-aware, and more (N: Mm-hmm) and more real and independent than any dream person we've seen so far. (N: Right) And she really does become a different person than Hennessy. (N: Right) I like that she finally feels like enough of her own person to allow herself to paint her own original.
Nievita: [00:31:49] Yeah. Or start to.
Shannon: [00:31:51] Yeah. (N: Mm-hmm) And Hennessy learns to accept herself for who she is and not tie her identity so closely to her mom. (N: Mm-hmm) And she learns to be brave and to ask for help. (N: Mm-hmm) I think she becomes a bit more of a real person over the course of the book, too. (N: Right) And I forget who mentions it, but there's a line somewhere saying that, it felt like Jordan should be the original and Hennessy the copy, and I totally feel that. (N: Yeah) I think-I think we've talked about that just very briefly, like--
Nievita: [00:32:15] --it's mentioned several times, but the most significant one is near the end... I think in the cafe when they're all meeting up to then split up again. (S: Uh-huh) And I think it's Ronan or Declan's P.O.V.? (S: Right) Yeah.
Shannon: [00:32:30] I want to say probably Ronan.
Nievita: [00:32:31] Yeah. Although I think it might be Declan simply because I have a feeling he was like nope. Nope. Nope. Nope! (both laugh) Can't have it, nope, nope, nope.
Nievita: [00:32:41] I highlight-or not highlighted, but I post-it-ed-it-t a note on page 3, because I think this is a thesis of exactly how they will change by the end of the book, and it's about the three Lynch brothers. "Declan grew more boring, and Ronan grew more bored. Matthew tried not to let his feet take him someplace he didn't understand. They all wanted more."
Shannon: [00:33:06] Yeah. I think I highlight that line, too.
Nievita: [00:33:08] Yeah. And the only other thing for me with a-identity, you covered pretty much everything... Ronan at the beginning, feeling like a friendless loser at Harvard (S: Mm-hmm) and then as a mentor, kind of m-maturing into his own power. (S: Right) You said that. But I was particularly struck, even though it was so short, with Adam's struggle with his identity (S: Yeeeaaahhh) in lying to his friends about being poor.
Nievita: [00:33:34] And it made me think, and I wish that I had actually looked this up because I had marked it to do: Persephone told him, and I believe it was in the Raven King; it was after she was dead? I think? That nobody needs to know about your past. You can be basically whoever you want to, (S: Right) you don't have to tell them anything. And so I-on the one hand, I wish that Adam was comfortable with who he was in his past. (S: Mm-hmm) But on the other hand, he's got to put his identity together. (S: Right) He has a chance to make a fresh start and become (S: Mm-hmm) the person he wants to be. Will that bite him in the ass later?
Both: [00:34:13] Probably. (Nievita laughs)
Nievita: [00:34:13] 'cause it tends to.
Shannon: [00:34:16] And Ronan totally did not get it.
Nievita: [00:34:19] No. And I mean, that's the way it is, right? (S: Mm-hmm) And Ronan even said he didn't get it (laughs) (S: Uh-huh) because it was Adam against himself (S: Right) vs. Ronan looking at the world in a black and white way. He recognized he didn't get it and didn't want to fight with Adam about it. But like, you know, (S: Mm-hmm) he didn't get it at all.
Shannon: [00:34:39] And I know this is gonna be a long one for you. (N: Uh-huh) Favorite chapters, scene, detail, or quote? Most satisfying, upsetting, angry making moment.